wtf is happening to Dean of Dean's World???
He's awfully pissy...
Here's his original post.
I wrote:
"Christians and Muslims because the Islamic faith represents a fundamental challenge to Christians: they claim to worship the same God, but they reject certain tenets that are implicit to the Christian faith."
They do NOT claim to worship the same god. Muslims specifically and categorically deny that Jesus is divine. Christianity is built upon the idea that Jesus IS divine. I don't blame you for not getting this as many Christians don't get it... but to claim a religion that does not worship Christ worships the same God as CHRISTians is ridiculous.
And Christians worry more about Muslism than Hindus and Shintoists and Buddhists not because Muslims are a more direct affront THEOLOGICALLY, or offer more of a threat to their worldview, or any other such nonsense... It is because of 9/11 and all the other terrorist attacks directed by Muslims against Christians. In short, Christians worry about Muslims more because Muslims kill Christians more than those other groups do.
Or do you remember Christians worrying a lot about Muslims before 9/11?
I hate to belabor you with the obvious, but this- "I think this tension may be permanent between Christians and Muslims because the Islamic faith represents a fundamental challenge to Christians" is kind of ridiculous... This implies that Christians are aggresively attacking Muslims, as opposed to reacting to attacks, and as opposed to Muslims aggressively attacking Christians. Next you'll tell me the Crusades were about Christians trying to take ancient Muslim land...
While we're at it, what exactly causes the permanent tension between Muslims and Jews in the ME? Do Muslims offer some specific ideological threat to them? How about the tension between Muslims and Hindus in India? Muslims and Buddhists in Thailand? Muslims and the Animists in Africa?
These poor Muslims, so put upon by all these aggressive religions!!! So why focus on Christians?
His reply:
Harkonnenmutt: If christians don't worship the same God as muslims, then they don't worship the same God as the jews either. Sorry, but you can't have it both ways--the jews also specifically deny that Christ was the messiah or was the Son of God. Indeed, they view the belief that God could have a human son as quite heretical. So, what you're claiming here is that you worship a different God than either the muslims OR the jews. Are you sure you want to take that stance?
Muslims worship the God of Abraham. They explicitely claim that, and that their faith is a direct outgrowth of what you call the Old Testament, and that their God is the same God as Yahveh/Jehovah. They even claim that Jesus was a prophet beloved of God.
You're also very conveniently ignoring--or maybe just don't know about--all the cases of christians committing mass murder of muslims, which has happened many times in history, the most recent being in the Rwanda genocide.
Oh, and muslims have integrated quite well into India and any number of other pluralist democracies. That's just a fact--as much as many of your fellow Christians would like to deny that fact, it's still a fact.
Essentially, Harkonnen, what you are is an ignorant Christian bigot. I don't blame you for being hoodwinked by bigoted and ill-informed members of your faith, but seriously? You need to educate yourself. Badly.
My reply:
This shouldn't be necessary, but since you've made it so... for the record, I think Islam and Christianity ARE compatible. For the record, I think Islam and secular free societies ARE compatible. For the record, I think the VAST majority of Muslims want to live in free societies and are victims of a tiny minority of fanatical douches who want Shari'a. For the record, the Muslim (Palestinian, btw) family I did business with for years reminded me of the nice Mormon families I grew up around more than anything else... and while I know that's just one family they are the template I use when I think of Muslims... and my Jewish wife has no problem with Muslims either... WAIT! WAIT! I'm a bigoted Christian- I couldn't have a Jewish wife or know Muslims, much less those evil Palestinian ones! those are the worst!!!
"Harkonnenmutt: If christians don't worship the same God as muslims, then they don't worship the same God as the jews either. Sorry, but you can't have it both ways--the jews also specifically deny that Christ was the messiah or was the Son of God. Indeed, they view the belief that God could have a human son as quite heretical. So, what you're claiming here is that you worship a different God than either the muslims OR the jews. Are you sure you want to take that stance?"
Yeah, I have no problem with that, since it is true. Christians think Jews have got it wrong, and vice versa. I'm well aware that all three are Abrahamic religions and that Muslims think Christ was a prophet. That's irrevelant. It is like saying Rugby is the same as Football because they are similar. The fact is there are fundamental differences between the Christian God and the Muslim God and the Jewish God which mean they CAN'T be the same God.
"You're also very conveniently ignoring--or maybe just don't know about--all the cases of christians committing mass murder of muslims, which has happened many times in history, the most recent being in the Rwanda genocide."
I'm not ignoring anything... It is irrevelant to the discussion. I'm not saying Muslims suck and Christians rock or anything like that... I'm pointing out the OBVIOUS- Christians got hot and bothered with Muslims because of 9/11, and Muslims have tension with LOTS of religions- which you have not bothered to refute.
Instead you call me an "ignorant Christian bigot" to avoid having to face the OBVIOUS. I understand the tactic, since what I said is irrefutable, but do you even understand why you've chosen to use that tactic?
Again, do you remember Christians being all worked up about Muslims pre 9/11? Do you think the increase in Christians worrying possibly has anything to do with that? Again, why do you single out Christians when Muslims have similar issues with Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, Animists, etc? It sounds to me like you are bigoted against Christians. I've gone on this site for quite a while, so I'm aware that some Christians have said a bunch of stupid crap on this site... that doesn't excuse you're assuming that anyone who disagrees with you does so because they are a bigoted Christian. If my arguments are false, and if I'm as ignorant as you say, you should easily be able to prove them false. Go to it.
Now, for the record, I think Islam and Christianity ARE compatible. For the record, I think Islam and secular free societies ARE compatible. For the record, I think the VAST majority of Muslims want to live in free societies and are victims of a tiny minority of fanatical douches who want Shari'a. For the record, the Muslim (Palestinian, btw) family I did business with for years reminded me of the nice Mormon families I grew up around more than anything else... and while I know that's just one family they are the template I use when I think of Muslims... and my Jewish wife has no problem with Muslims either... WAIT! WAIT! I'm a bigoted Christian- I couldn't have a Jewish wife or know Muslims, much less those evil Palestinian ones! those are the worst!!!
"You need to educate yourself. Badly."
Actually, you need to stop closing your mind to alternative viewpoints by crying bigot whenever you read something that doesn't jibe with your personal beliefs... You throw those words ignorant and racist around pretty freely, don't you?
Here's his original post.
I wrote:
"Christians and Muslims because the Islamic faith represents a fundamental challenge to Christians: they claim to worship the same God, but they reject certain tenets that are implicit to the Christian faith."
They do NOT claim to worship the same god. Muslims specifically and categorically deny that Jesus is divine. Christianity is built upon the idea that Jesus IS divine. I don't blame you for not getting this as many Christians don't get it... but to claim a religion that does not worship Christ worships the same God as CHRISTians is ridiculous.
And Christians worry more about Muslism than Hindus and Shintoists and Buddhists not because Muslims are a more direct affront THEOLOGICALLY, or offer more of a threat to their worldview, or any other such nonsense... It is because of 9/11 and all the other terrorist attacks directed by Muslims against Christians. In short, Christians worry about Muslims more because Muslims kill Christians more than those other groups do.
Or do you remember Christians worrying a lot about Muslims before 9/11?
I hate to belabor you with the obvious, but this- "I think this tension may be permanent between Christians and Muslims because the Islamic faith represents a fundamental challenge to Christians" is kind of ridiculous... This implies that Christians are aggresively attacking Muslims, as opposed to reacting to attacks, and as opposed to Muslims aggressively attacking Christians. Next you'll tell me the Crusades were about Christians trying to take ancient Muslim land...
While we're at it, what exactly causes the permanent tension between Muslims and Jews in the ME? Do Muslims offer some specific ideological threat to them? How about the tension between Muslims and Hindus in India? Muslims and Buddhists in Thailand? Muslims and the Animists in Africa?
These poor Muslims, so put upon by all these aggressive religions!!! So why focus on Christians?
His reply:
Harkonnenmutt: If christians don't worship the same God as muslims, then they don't worship the same God as the jews either. Sorry, but you can't have it both ways--the jews also specifically deny that Christ was the messiah or was the Son of God. Indeed, they view the belief that God could have a human son as quite heretical. So, what you're claiming here is that you worship a different God than either the muslims OR the jews. Are you sure you want to take that stance?
Muslims worship the God of Abraham. They explicitely claim that, and that their faith is a direct outgrowth of what you call the Old Testament, and that their God is the same God as Yahveh/Jehovah. They even claim that Jesus was a prophet beloved of God.
You're also very conveniently ignoring--or maybe just don't know about--all the cases of christians committing mass murder of muslims, which has happened many times in history, the most recent being in the Rwanda genocide.
Oh, and muslims have integrated quite well into India and any number of other pluralist democracies. That's just a fact--as much as many of your fellow Christians would like to deny that fact, it's still a fact.
Essentially, Harkonnen, what you are is an ignorant Christian bigot. I don't blame you for being hoodwinked by bigoted and ill-informed members of your faith, but seriously? You need to educate yourself. Badly.
My reply:
This shouldn't be necessary, but since you've made it so... for the record, I think Islam and Christianity ARE compatible. For the record, I think Islam and secular free societies ARE compatible. For the record, I think the VAST majority of Muslims want to live in free societies and are victims of a tiny minority of fanatical douches who want Shari'a. For the record, the Muslim (Palestinian, btw) family I did business with for years reminded me of the nice Mormon families I grew up around more than anything else... and while I know that's just one family they are the template I use when I think of Muslims... and my Jewish wife has no problem with Muslims either... WAIT! WAIT! I'm a bigoted Christian- I couldn't have a Jewish wife or know Muslims, much less those evil Palestinian ones! those are the worst!!!
"Harkonnenmutt: If christians don't worship the same God as muslims, then they don't worship the same God as the jews either. Sorry, but you can't have it both ways--the jews also specifically deny that Christ was the messiah or was the Son of God. Indeed, they view the belief that God could have a human son as quite heretical. So, what you're claiming here is that you worship a different God than either the muslims OR the jews. Are you sure you want to take that stance?"
Yeah, I have no problem with that, since it is true. Christians think Jews have got it wrong, and vice versa. I'm well aware that all three are Abrahamic religions and that Muslims think Christ was a prophet. That's irrevelant. It is like saying Rugby is the same as Football because they are similar. The fact is there are fundamental differences between the Christian God and the Muslim God and the Jewish God which mean they CAN'T be the same God.
"You're also very conveniently ignoring--or maybe just don't know about--all the cases of christians committing mass murder of muslims, which has happened many times in history, the most recent being in the Rwanda genocide."
I'm not ignoring anything... It is irrevelant to the discussion. I'm not saying Muslims suck and Christians rock or anything like that... I'm pointing out the OBVIOUS- Christians got hot and bothered with Muslims because of 9/11, and Muslims have tension with LOTS of religions- which you have not bothered to refute.
Instead you call me an "ignorant Christian bigot" to avoid having to face the OBVIOUS. I understand the tactic, since what I said is irrefutable, but do you even understand why you've chosen to use that tactic?
Again, do you remember Christians being all worked up about Muslims pre 9/11? Do you think the increase in Christians worrying possibly has anything to do with that? Again, why do you single out Christians when Muslims have similar issues with Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, Animists, etc? It sounds to me like you are bigoted against Christians. I've gone on this site for quite a while, so I'm aware that some Christians have said a bunch of stupid crap on this site... that doesn't excuse you're assuming that anyone who disagrees with you does so because they are a bigoted Christian. If my arguments are false, and if I'm as ignorant as you say, you should easily be able to prove them false. Go to it.
Now, for the record, I think Islam and Christianity ARE compatible. For the record, I think Islam and secular free societies ARE compatible. For the record, I think the VAST majority of Muslims want to live in free societies and are victims of a tiny minority of fanatical douches who want Shari'a. For the record, the Muslim (Palestinian, btw) family I did business with for years reminded me of the nice Mormon families I grew up around more than anything else... and while I know that's just one family they are the template I use when I think of Muslims... and my Jewish wife has no problem with Muslims either... WAIT! WAIT! I'm a bigoted Christian- I couldn't have a Jewish wife or know Muslims, much less those evil Palestinian ones! those are the worst!!!
"You need to educate yourself. Badly."
Actually, you need to stop closing your mind to alternative viewpoints by crying bigot whenever you read something that doesn't jibe with your personal beliefs... You throw those words ignorant and racist around pretty freely, don't you?
posted by Harkonnendog @ 10:38 AM
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